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Why does this (duplication) happen to my buttons?
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COHagan
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Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Nov 2006, 17:13 Reply with quote

Hello, this is my first post - please bear with my noobishness.

After much frustration with iDVD's default behavior of forcing pan & scan behavior for a 16:9 menu on a 4:3 television I decided to follow suggestions posted to Apple's forums to use myDVDEdit to change the default aspect behavior for the menu to 16:9 auto letterbox.

This did, indeed, result in the desired widescreen letterbox menu format on a 4:3 television. It did, however, cause another sort of problem. Now, the "buttons" are "duplicated" on the menu - one in the background for the unselected state and another - offset and in the foreground for the highlighted or selected state.

1) Normal buttons:

2) Duplicated buttons:

In both cases the DVDs were created using Toast Titanium 7 from a VIDEO_TS folder extracted from an iDVD created .img file. The first (normal) example is still in auto pan&scan mode as it has been untouched by myDVDEdit. The second is letterboxed as I used MyDVDEdit to apply auot letterbox to the menu.

Note that I do not think this is necessarily the result of applying the letterboxing because I can reproduce a similar effect in the menu preview in myDVDEdit without changing the aspect (button titles changed in iDVD slightly from other examples):




Interestingly the menu appears fine in all cases when previewed in the OS X DVD Player.

Thanks in advance for your help.
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Jerome
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Nov 2006, 17:55 Reply with quote

Hi COHagan, welcome.

Oh yes, I know what happen.

With DVD, when you change the picture aspect ratio, the subpicture does not change.

On your menu, the white titles are in the picture, but the yellow titles are in the subpicture.
The subpicture is used to highlight the title you want select.

If you change the picture aspect, the subpicture does not corresponding with the picture anymore, and you can see what you call duplicated buttons.

How that could works ?
If you look at the Information tab, you could see that, for each subpicture, you can choose a subpicture stream for the normal mode, one for the letterbox mode, and a third for the pan&scan mode. in your case you have entered the same stream number. It's not a problem for titles, but it is for menus.

What to do ?
Sorry, nothing can be done.
To works, the VOB file should contain a stream for the normal mode, and a second stream for the pan&scan mode. but iDVD didn't create it, and add a new stream is very complex.

I understand your desappointment. May be a day, myDVDEdit will do it, but not before a long long time.

Jerome
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COHagan
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Nov 2006, 18:10 Reply with quote

Thank you Jérôme for a quick and definitive answer. Although mildly dissapointed I am glad to be able to go about an alternate solution and not waste time trying to do the impossible.

To be honest the effect is not altogether undesirable and could work as an interesting style for some menu designs.

As far as you know, are there any DVD authoring applications other than iDVD that *do* create separate streams for the normal and pan&scan modes?

Thanks again for your expertise.
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aaron
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Dec 2006, 13:03 Reply with quote

Jérôme wrote:
With DVD, when you change the picture aspect ratio, the subpicture does not change.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think there's one exception to this:

If the physical screen aspect ratio is 16:9, neither the subpicture nor the main picture will change position if the DVD aspect ratio is set to any of the 16:9 variants. However, if the DVD aspect ratio is set to 4:3, the subpicture and the main picture will both shrink horizontally to fit in the middle 3/4 of the screen. So there is never a problem of displacement of the subpicture relative to the main picture if the physical screen aspect ratio is 16:9.
COHagan wrote:
Interestingly the menu appears fine in all cases when previewed in the OS X DVD Player.

Apple's DVD Player apparently always emulates a screen that matches the aspect ratio of the DVD, so neither Letterbox nor Pan and Scan is used and the problem doesn't arise.
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Jerome
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Dec 2006, 16:21 Reply with quote

Yes. I fact, in a DVD, (and you can see it in myDVDEdit in the button group editor and in the subpicture streams setting) we have 3 modes.

- Normal: it's when the picture is in 4:3 or 16:9 ratio. the subpictures and the picture have the same size.
- Letterbox: the picture is reduced, but not the subpicture, witch is in full 4:3 ratio.
- Pan and scan: the picture is truncated, but not the subpicture.

You right, the Apple's DVD Player is always in normal mode. Letterbox and pan&scan are never used.

Jerome
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aaron
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Dec 2006, 13:04 Reply with quote

It just occurred to me that the different behavior of subpictures (compared to that of the main picture) re Letterbox and Pan and Scan makes perfect sense!

Since the main use of subpictures is for subtitles, you'd want them near the bottom of the screen even (especially!) when the movie was being letterboxed. And you certainly wouldn't want them cut off at the ends when the movie was being truncated in Pan and Scan! But you probably wouldn't care too much if they were a bit (exactly 25%, in fact) compressed horizontally! (Narrow letters are a lot less annoying than anorexic-looking people and wheels shaped like eggs!}

This is probably obvious to those like Jérôme who have worked with this a lot. But I'm probably not the only one who didn't see the obvious right away.
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aaron
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Dec 2006, 13:17 Reply with quote

Back to the post that started this topic:
COHagan wrote:
After much frustration with iDVD's default behavior of forcing pan & scan behavior for a 16:9 menu on a 4:3 television I decided to follow suggestions posted to Apple's forums to use myDVDEdit to change the default aspect behavior for the menu to 16:9 auto letterbox.

It seems to me that using plain 16:9 would solve the problem of alignment, although it's not a perfect solution because images used as background would be distorted. It seems to me like a much less serious problem, though!
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